Podium is lookin' good!

[Argitoth]

I hear it's very stable, very ergonomic, and can compete with any sequencer out there. Take a look at the reviews: http://www.kvraudio.com/get/834.html

Frits Nielsen is the only developer and he updates his product very often. It's looking really promising and I might replace Cubase with it because of all the limitations that Cubase purposely imposes for GOD knows why (such as the limit on VSTs, insert, send, and group effects, it drives me insane).

The product is still in its infancy, but it looks AWESOME. I can't wait to try the demo (no computer yet). The coolest feature I think is the bouncing (freezing) of tracks. Check out the video files on the front page.

http://www.zynewave.com/

[sgx]

Didn't you know about those limitations when you bought cubase?

Is there something special about podium's freeze method or is this just the first time you've heard of a feature that 90% of hosts have had for a while?

[Zoola]

...what the hell are you talking about?

Cubase SX3 has:

64 VST slots
64 Send effect slots
8 inserts per channel

When are you ever going to use more then 8 effects? And besides, you can just use sends. And 64 VST slots? You show me a song that has 64 virtual instruments running at once. Your computer will die before you can even think about using all these channels!

And Cubase has a freeze option; its right next to each of the VST instrument names on the selector.

[OverCoat]

WOW, FREEZING!

When are you ever going to use more then 8 effects? And besides, you can just use sends. And 64 VST slots? You show me a song that has 64 virtual instruments running at once.

Some people are that nuts, Zoola.

I'm not one of them but I am just saying!

Oh, but I have used more than 8 effects on one channel before.

[Spc1st]

Might it have a score/notation view? (most likely not, but I'll definitely give this a shot if it does)

[Argitoth]

Is there something special about podium's freeze method or is this just the first time you've heard of a feature that 90% of hosts have had for a while?
Nothing special about it. Right now it's just "click and record" to bounce a track in real-time. But in the near future it will become better, as in not real-time.

...what the hell are you talking about?
I quote this because I'm responding to your entire post, Zoola. First of all, Steinberg is a very well established company and therefor there's not much evolution in their products currently. But right now Podium is new and it will get MUCH MUCH better in the future and it will get better very quickly. One thing I look forward to is the ability to use vst midi effects (VSTs controlling VSTs and VSTs controlling incoming MIDI). Cubase will not support this nor I doubt we will see an update ANY time soon. Now since Podium is new (I'm being redundant, yes) I will be able to request features that have a GOOD chance of being added unlike Cubase. Now, Steinberg limits you purposely because I didn't have enough money to buy Cubase SX which still imposes limits, who knows why. But Podium will never waste programming lines to impose limits. Limits are just plain stupid. :x

ONE LAST POINT TO BLOW EVERYTHING AWAY!: I have Cubase SL and Cubase SX is $300 upgrade. Podium is $90. Come on, Zoola... come on... just do the math... 8) I could sell Cubase SL and get enough money to pay for Podium and have some money left over.
And Cubase has a freeze option; its right next to each of the VST instrument names on the selector.
I know. I'm just saying Podium can bounce tracks. I really like that.

Might it have a score/notation view? (most likely not, but I'll definitely give this a shot if it does)
Naa, what do you use notation for? Most of us are electronic artists.

Oh, but I have used more than 8 effects on one channel before.
Yep. Cubase is the only host/sequencer that I know that imposes limits. I've wanted to use more than 4 group effects (which is the limit of Cubase SL) to do some complex and convenient routings, but I was limited. :roll:

[Xelebes]

I think you mean "the competition of other software suites is what I'm looking for" instead of "Steinberg's lack of evolution.

[Argitoth]

I think you mean "the competition of other software suites is what I'm looking for" instead of "Steinberg's lack of evolution.
huh? "other software suites"

[Xelebes]

You are telling me you do not understand that term?

[Compyfox]

Yep. Cubase is the only host/sequencer that I know that imposes limits. I've wanted to use more than 4 group effects (which is the limit of Cubase SL) to do some complex and convenient routings, but I was limited. :roll:

Sorry but, then you have no right to complain.

Cubase SL has these limits for a reason. If you'd suffled out a bit more then you'd have gotten a tool that has no limits on groups or complex routing. I mean...you took researches, bugged us with questions what to get and if this tools suits your needs, etc.

Or maybe you're just spoiled with the possibilities you have lately. I still use VST5 on my laptop from time to time and you know what? 4 send channels, 8 VSTi racks, still 8 inserts per channel. You think tracks from the 70ies and 80ies were made any different? I have to remind you that there was still hardware only involved and routing was way more difficult than it is now.


Oh, but I have used more than 8 effects on one channel before.

And the keywords is: Multieffect Module
With this you can use more than 8 Insert effects.

On the other hand... I barely used more than 6 insert effects either. 7 at the most. And like already mentioned... there're still send effects. And compared to elder tools - you can not only use one alone in the send channel, but you can make a send effect with 8 subeffects.


First of all, Steinberg is a very well established company and therefor there's not much evolution in their products currently. But right now Podium is new and it will get MUCH MUCH better in the future and it will get better very quickly. One thing I look forward to is the ability to use vst midi effects (VSTs controlling VSTs and VSTs controlling incoming MIDI). Cubase will not support this nor I doubt we will see an update ANY time soon.

Er... wrong... totally wrong.
Cubase SX uses MIDI insert effects since SX1 (same with SL). A bit more difficult with a couple of tools since VST5, but it uses MIDI insert effects tohave an arpeggiator for example, pitchshifter, automatic input transformer/filter, logial editor, etc. On the other hand. Cubase can also let VSTi's (not VSTs, you seem to not understand the differences yet) control other VSTi's. That can be done with the freely routable input/output of the MIDI tracks.

So you see... Cubase has everything of this already. Then why change to a tool that's still lacking these implementations and, even with upgrades, will be far from what Cubase already has to offer.


Another thing you don't seem to know (yet):
At the Steinberg boards, there's already SX4 announced. Not official, but the programmers answered to a question regarding further upgrades (literally) "we won't workon SX3.1 anymore but on a newer version", which implies that SX4 is coming up fairly soon. Don't imply something that isn't true, Argitoth. Steinberg may be slow in terms of new features and bugfixes, support may be crappy as hell - but they're not sitting on their hands doing nothing.


All in all... Cubase is everything, but definitly not non-intuitive. At least in my opinion.

[debeerguy007]

Time to make my obligatory noob comment:

As long as a product doesn't make my computer die... I'm happy.

[Argitoth]

Er... wrong... totally wrong.
Cubase SX uses MIDI insert effects since SX1 (same with SL). A bit more difficult with a couple of tools since VST5, but it uses MIDI insert effects tohave an arpeggiator for example, pitchshifter, automatic input transformer/filter, logial editor, etc. On the other hand. Cubase can also let VSTi's (not VSTs, you seem to not understand the differences yet) control other VSTi's. That can be done with the freely routable input/output of the MIDI tracks.

Compyfox, when I say "support for midi VSTs" I mean support for devices outside of Cubase. There are a good number of cool midi VSTs out there that will not work with Cubase or Podium. Podium will support it in the future. Plus, upgrading for Cubase SL3 to SX4 is still going to be at least $300. Podium will have had many updates by the time Cubase 4 comes out.

Anyway, there are already people using Podium that have used Cubase already. Just read the reviews. Even on the forums of Podium there are many "converts", those who've been using other programs and now use Podium.

[Compyfox]

Compyfox, when I say "support for midi VSTs" I mean support for devices outside of Cubase. There are a good number of cool midi VSTs out there that will not work with Cubase or Podium. Podium will support it in the future.

Enlighten us... What do you mean by MIDI VSTs that don't work with Cubase? Please name a few. I'm very curious about that myself.


On the other hand "MIDI VSTs" don't exist. You could mean "VSTs controlable by MIDI", which is a completely different issue. VST plugins are audio effects - and they can be "controlled" by MIDI (for example wet/dry ratio of a reverb). If we're talking about MIDI plugins, we talk about tools like arpeggiators, step sequencer, etc. And those are "basicly" VSTi's (aka instruments). Unless they're engine internal. Then they're really MIDI plugins.

Please don't shuffle that.


Plus, upgrading for Cubase SL3 to SX4 is still going to be at least $300. Podium will have had many updates by the time Cubase 4 comes out.

You're sure of that? Can you tell the future? If so, what's the lottery numbers for tomorrow? I could need some money.

But joke aside... If you don`t like Cubase, then why did you get it in the first place? I personally see no reason to "switch". Well only because of two things, but this is stuff I rarely use:
1) No Convolution Reverb
2) Crappy support - which isn't really a reason to switch

SX4 is announced for a couple of months now. Musikmesse 2006 is coming up end of march too. For Steinberg are working a couple of programmers, for Podium however only one person. What do you think is finished sooner?


Else I don't really see a reason for this mumbo jumbo that Cubase "sucks bawlz" (literally). Steinberg is and will still set set standards! Without Steinberg no VST technology. Without VST technology no software instruments/effect plugins. Therefore... nothing of what we're used to now that makes the live a bit easier in terms of production and engineering. No matter if it's for starters, or professionals.

[zircon]

To be fair, AU, DXi, and RTAS were all created independently of Steinberg and have similar functionality.

[Argitoth]

Steinberg will not lower the upgrade price when they bring out a new version. (The upgrade price from SL to SX is $300) If they were changing the price at all it would certainly go up, not down. And yes, I'm talking about midi plugins. I guess they are not VSTs. But like I said Cubase does not support it and Podium will. I have given you reasons why I would want to use Podium, you don't have to tell me how great Cubase is.

I'm raising awareness about Podium because it looks really great. I wanted other people to know about it. That's it.

Compyfox, do you know anything about Cubase 4?

[Compyfox]

Sure I know about CUbase 4, but I will go in depth about that later. Still I wait for your examples of your so called MIDI plugins that won't work in Cubase. Before you don't do that, I don't believe it.

To be short: I want proof.

And yeah:
DXi, RTAS and AU is a different thing. But AU is based upon the VSTi engine, however mac related (later VST for mac was developed, but this is an other issue) and DXi was a sideproduct from DirectX, which used a similar technology than VST, but had a different header. RTAS is an own language by ProTools though - that's why not so much is existing. It was first aimed at hardware accelerated systems before they moved into a native system basis.


I'll go in depth about that later. Don't have time atm.

[Argitoth]

here are some midi plugins:
http://www.midiplugins.com/
http://www.tobybear.de/p_midibag.html

Look what I found:

"MFX (or MIDI FX) is a part of the DirectX music specification that allows for the processing of MIDI data. All recent Cakewalk products (SONAR, Project5, Home Studio, etc) can use MFX plugins, and recent Cubase (SX/SL) offerings can use them through a wrapper provided by Steinberg." http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/

uhh... well ok, but where's the wrapper?

[Compyfox]

Okay, now that I have the time to answer a couple of things, I'll do so.

Steinberg will not lower the upgrade price when they bring out a new version. (The upgrade price from SL to SX is $300) If they were changing the price at all it would certainly go up, not down.

So what? That's happening with other tools too. You chose to go the SL way and now you complain that SL is not good enough for you. You did researches, you said you will totally own this tool, that you read the manual and stuff, and now you say that this thing is limiting and not what you expected.

Again the question: Why get it in the first place then?


And yes, I'm talking about midi plugins. I guess they are not VSTs. But like I said Cubase does not support it and Podium will. I have given you reasons why I would want to use Podium, you don't have to tell me how great Cubase is.

There are no "pure MIDI plugins". They work on a specific base, else they're MIDI tools (standalone). So they have a certain format (VSTi, DXi, MFX, Au, RTAS). VST Plugins however are a totally different world, like already mentioned.

And I don't tell you how "great" Cubase is. I just remind you of what Cubase is capable of that you seemed to have forgotten. Please... Before you compare something, do not imply something that isn't true and covered in feature lists.

Compyfox, do you know anything about Cubase 4?

Yeah I know what Cubase 4 is.
Cubase 4 (pack) is an all in one recording solution for beginners. Cubase 4 once consisted of a recording device and Cubasis (Audio). Now it constists of a special Cubase SL or SE version and there're more limitations given of course. However the price is fair for what you get.

If you consider getting it instead of SL, you have to keep in mind that this would be a downgrade for you rather than an upgrade.


here are some midi plugins:
http://www.midiplugins.com/

Oh yeah... this sure is old stuff. I barely touched them (cause I didn't need anything of that so far), but I know from a couple of friends that those either work as "VSTi" or MIDI inserts in the inspector of Cubase SX (inspector, MIDI dropdown menu).

So it's not true that they don't work.

http://www.tobybear.de/p_midibag.html

As user of Tobybear Plugins I can also confirm that those work in Cubase SX/SL since SX1 or SX2. Don't know anymore. They don't work in VST3.7 and VST5 however. But since SX is out, we're not talking about them anymore.

As with the other plugins, they either work as MIDI inserts, or VSTi that can be later routed how you want them to be with the input/output selector (MIDI) in the inspector of your MIDI channel.

So it's also not true that they don't work.

Look what I found:

"MFX (or MIDI FX) is a part of the DirectX music specification that allows for the processing of MIDI data. All recent Cakewalk products (SONAR, Project5, Home Studio, etc) can use MFX plugins, and recent Cubase (SX/SL) offerings can use them through a wrapper provided by Steinberg." http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/

Well if you're talking about MFX plugins, this is a totally own issue. MFX plugins are Cakewalk internal plugins. Like Cubase has their own internal effects/plugins/VSTi that only work with Cubase only, or the Generators and FX from Fruity Loops can only work with Fruity Loops - MFX only works with Cakewalk Products. Basicly Cakewalk Sonar.

The MFX Wrapper you're talking about worked on Cubase SX(1) only if I can still remember. You might be lucky that this still works with later versions but it didn't work for me (SX3), neither was I in need of MFX plugins from Sonar. So I can't go really in depth.


uhh... well ok, but where's the wrapper?

Still getting the MFX Wrapper is a bit tricky however and takes a lot of researches and time. Not to mention that this thing is simply discontinued (nobody was really interested). The Steinberg FTP still has this somewhere, but to spare you from searching I simply uploaded that thing. Included is a quick manual too.

MFX Plugin (for SX1) (http://www.studio-compyfox.de/testcorner/cubase/mfx_plugin.rar)


The rest is trial and error. Don't be upset if it's not working for you. But those mentioned MIDI plugins do definitly work. If there're users at KVR who're not happy about Cubase and want to switch to Podium due to those simple reasons, they simply don't know how to use it. And sorry to say this, but yourself included Argitoth.

[Argitoth]

The ability to use midi plugins is not a selling point... not now anyway. I would never switch to Podium just because of that reason. Also, by Cubase 4 I meant the new version of Cubase SL/SX... like Cubase SX4 since you said it was coming out I wanted to know if you knew any features that are planned. I'm not switching to Podium any time soon, I don't have the resources to do it.

If there're users at KVR who're not happy about Cubase and want to switch to Podium due to those simple reasons, they simply don't know how to use it. And sorry to say this, but yourself included Argitoth.
There are none, including myself, switching to Podium for this reason. I'm not even switching. It's the interface, the fact that it's a very stable program, the customer support, the fact that you can request features, things like that. That is why people are using Podium. Plus, Midi plugin support is not implented yet. To switch to Podium for that reason is... dumb?

[Compyfox]

The ability to use midi plugins is not a selling point... not now anyway. I would never switch to Podium just because of that reason. Also, by Cubase 4 I meant the new version of Cubase SL/SX... like Cubase SX4 since you said it was coming out I wanted to know if you knew any features that are planned.

Then you should have made that clear. There's more than just "Cubase" out, you know? And no, no relevant informations about SX4 out yet. Only requests by users. If that will ever take fruit is another thing.


There are none, including myself, switching to Podium for this reason. I'm not even switching. It's the interface, the fact that it's a very stable program, the customer support, the fact that you can request features, things like that. That is why people are using Podium. Plus, Midi plugin support is not implented yet. To switch to Podium for that reason is... dumb?


Wait wait wait wait!
Even in your first post you wrote that you might change to Podium. Then why all this rukus?!

[Potshot]

Do you just troll this board waiting for argitoth to post so you can roast him? I've read many of your responses to him, and I can't quite understand why you simply just don't post in his threads instead of making it your seeming mission in life to put him down every step of the way.

[Compyfox]

If you mean that I troll just because I correct stuff and analyse a couple of things... okay... whatever :roll:
Then I ask myself why I answered his questions or offered him tools related to the content too, rather than flame him to death?


You guys have a twisted point of view, really. Slowly moves into paranoia...

[Argitoth]

Wait wait wait wait!
Even in your first post you wrote that you might change to Podium. Then why all this rukus?!

Yes, I would like to. But... I can't. It's another $90 I just don't have and I'd have to sell Cubase to get the money. And I can't do that because I need rewire support. Podium is *trying* to get ReWire at this moment, but Props noobs aren't responding. And I would LOVE to get rid of Reason so I don't even have to depend on ReWire, but I need things to replace Reason before I get rid of it: like a sampler such as Kontakt, and a drum machine such as Guru. I plan on buying Guru this year.

But at the end of the day, for me, the only selling point for Podium is its low price because I'd pretty much be happy with SX3. :wink: But then, I still am really interested in Podium.

[Legion303]

a drum machine such as Guru. I plan on buying Guru this year.

Guru's not really a drum machine, but more of a rhythm builder (i.e., loops) from what I can tell. I'd go with FXpansion BFD instead. Aside from my sequencer (FL Studio), BFD is my favorite piece of software ever.

-steve

[Argitoth]

BFD is an acoustical drumkit machine. I need a sampler/loop builder/rhythm builder/drum machine, whatever you want to call Guru, that's what it is I need; that, or Battery.

[Catlein]

Do you just troll this board waiting for argitoth to post so you can roast him? I've read many of your responses to him, and I can't quite understand why you simply just don't post in his threads instead of making it your seeming mission in life to put him down every step of the way.

He does do that. It's kinda... bitchy. So to speak.

[Compyfox]

Then why not go with Stylus RMX or Basement Arts ReFlex? Loop Player, Beatconstructor and drumkits... all in one. Stylus is 250USD, ReFlex if I'm not mistaken 100-120USD.


@Catlein:
Who're you? Never saw you contributing anything in this section of the boards? And where was there flaming invoved? I only asked Argitoth questions, gave him hints and enhanced his knowledge base.

"OMG COMPYFOx IS POSTING AT OCR = FLAME!" - You guys sure are paranoid...

[zircon]

It's very true that you do seem to go out of your way to reply to Argitoth in ANY of his threads, and often you keep replying to him constantly despite the fact that you say he "wastes our time" etc. You don't have to respond if you don't want to.

So far, nothing he has really said here merits any kind of moderation. He's basically saying that Podium looks cool, and has a good amount of features.

[Zoola]

BFD is an acoustical drumkit machine. I need a sampler/loop builder/rhythm builder/drum machine, whatever you want to call Guru, that's what it is I need; that, or Battery.
I like Battery.

As with the main issue, I agree with compy that cubase can do pretty much everything you need. One thing I have learned over my limited musical experience is that you can always do more with the equipment you already have then you think you can. Argi, you have been only working with SL for 2 months. Give it some time, and I think you will be pleased.

[Compyfox]

It's very true that you do seem to go out of your way to reply to Argitoth in ANY of his threads, and often you keep replying to him constantly despite the fact that you say he "wastes our time" etc. You don't have to respond if you don't want to.

Oh look who's in here again, our board sheriff.
You know what? Find your own resources, do your own researches from now on... maybe somebody else will help you... but you don't have to expect it from me anymore.

I asked him a couple of questions, you imply that I flame him. Okay... fine. Go ahead you friggin paranoids, maybe I'm on the way for world domination and you conspiracy theoreticians can do whatever the hell you want!

Now THIS was an insult and a flame. Go run off, complain to DJP as you always do. This was another flame too, btw.


Sorry that I hijacked your thread for this, Argi. I hope I could at least gve you a little bit of informative material. In the end it's up to you what you do. But personally I don't see a reason in Podium if Cubase can give me what I need (and is already full fledged).

Congrats to all others.

[zircon]

It's very true that you do seem to go out of your way to reply to Argitoth in ANY of his threads, and often you keep replying to him constantly despite the fact that you say he "wastes our time" etc. You don't have to respond if you don't want to.

Oh look who's in here again, our board sheriff.
You know what? Find your own resources, do your own researches from now on... maybe somebody else will help you... but you don't have to expect it from me anymore.

No one asked for your help. We don't need it. Don't expect anyone to beg you not to leave.

In regards to the comment "board sheriff", well gee, I am a moderator after all. It's my job to police these forums - this one in particular - and keep it as a helpful resource for both inexperienced and experienced ReMixers alike.

I asked him a couple of questions, you imply that I flame him. Okay... fine. Go ahead you friggin paranoids, maybe I'm on the way for world domination and you conspiracy theoreticians can do whatever the hell you want!

Everyone who has followed this forum for the last few months KNOWS that you post in literally every single thread Argitoth makes. You stalk the guy. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's easily verifiable with a forum search.

Now THIS was an insult and a flame. Go run off, complain to DJP as you always do. This was another flame too, btw.

I don't write complaints. You do.

As always, future off-topic posts will be deleted.

[Argitoth]

Give it some time, and I think you will be pleased.
Yeah. I haven't had a computer for about a month now, but my new computer has already been ordered. Funny thing is my studio now LOOKS like a studio, just like yours, except a lot less expensive. I got a new computer, got new speakers, I planned on getting a new keyboard, but it's a waste of money. I need Kontakt more than anything. Hopefully I can find a deal on Kontakt.

Anyway, Stylus RMX and Basement Arts ReFlex are both loop machines. Battery and Guru are not, except that Guru can work with loops. And when I say loops I mean loop wav files, not as in creating loops out of individual wavs, which Guru and Battery are meant to do.

I have a question about ReFlex. The most important feature in a loop machine that I find is the ability to change the parameters of each individual slice. Concrete FX Dicer (http://www.concretefx.com/Dicer.htm) can do that, and I believe it is a very powerful loop machine for the price (haven't had a computer to try the demo), but it can't import Rex2 which is a problem. It can import Rex1 and wav.

Can ReFlex change individual slice's properties?

Zircon and Compyfox, please stop your quote war! Just chill. 8)

[zircon]

It's true that Stylus RMX can't take individual hits and create loops out of them, but the massive core library and the fact that it can import loops makes it the most powerful drum machine around.

Also, Battery is NOT like Guru. Battery is purely a drum machine - it loads a variety of drum samples and plays them back one at a time. It is not a loop machine.

[Argle]

It's very true that you do seem to go out of your way to reply to Argitoth in ANY of his threads, and often you keep replying to him constantly despite the fact that you say he "wastes our time" etc. You don't have to respond if you don't want to.

^^^ what he said.

It's not a conspiracy theory at all... I wouldn't remotely call myself a reg here, and it's plain as day to me.

[Argitoth]

Also, Battery is NOT like Guru. Battery is purely a drum machine - it loads a variety of drum samples and plays them back one at a time. It is not a loop machine.
At this point I'm still trying to weigh the benefits between Guru and Battery. Guru is a very strong loop constructor, but in terms of sound tweaking, Battery has a lot more power. Battery is meant to be used with a sequencer which I believe can provide better flexability. But Guru has a lot of features in its internal sequencer that makes it easy to construct loops. I'll have to download the Guru demo.

[zircon]

Well, you'd be surprised how deep the sample tweaking goes in Guru. They're both really good products.

[Xelebes]

To lighten up this thread from it's current introspective fluff, I bring you my new sig.

Apart from that Argi, go right ahead.

[Sixto]

It's true that Stylus RMX can't take individual hits and create loops out of them, but the massive core library and the fact that it can import loops makes it the most powerful drum machine around.

It can't? I make my own loops out of singles hits in RMX all the time. Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying or I'm just a super RMX haxxor.

[zircon]

It's true that Stylus RMX can't take individual hits and create loops out of them, but the massive core library and the fact that it can import loops makes it the most powerful drum machine around.

It can't? I make my own loops out of singles hits in RMX all the time. Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying or I'm just a super RMX haxxor.

You can take single hits and sequence them in YOUR sequencer, but RMX itself doesn't have a sequencer.

[SnappleMan]

Modplug up in your griddle jigga-WATT!

[SnappleMan]

Everyone is obsessed with channel limitations, effects limitations and all this other bullshit that just makes music production needlessly complicated and exhausting.

If you learn the basics of digital music creation, and learn them well, you wont ever need more than 2-4 effects per channel.

[Sixto]

You can take single hits and sequence them in YOUR sequencer, but RMX itself doesn't have a sequencer.

Oho, gotcha.