What's the best way to make orchestrated music?

[DarthVivi]

Hi, first of all I want to say I hope I don't sound like a n00b. I read the sticky topics and downloaded Fruity Loops, but I don't know if that's what I was looking for.

I want to make orchestrated music, like Chrono Trigger Symphonic. I know making that kind of music is a real challenge, and I won't be able to make anything of that quality for a VERY long time (if ever), but I think CT Symphonic is the most amazing thing on this site.

Is Fruity Loops the best way to start out, even if I just want to make music with ordinary instruments? I don't want whatever I make to sound like it's been made with a computer, and more like it was actually played at a symphony.

Gah, sorry, I'm really a music newb. I can read music and play piano, but I know nothing about theory or composing. >_>

Thanks for your help...

[OverCoat]

Well you need samples!

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

or soundfonts.

if you dont have FL soundfont player, you'll need that.

then head over to http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25622 for links to some soundfonts to use...

you can also check out the sample request thread...

[OverCoat]

Soundfonts are samples

just fyi

[DarthVivi]

FL Studio says in comes with the Soundfont Player, and it tells how to use it in the help file, but it doesn't tell how to actually open it...

[Cerrax]

I use East West Quantam Leap Symphonic Orchestra (EWQLSO for short. It's about $140 on ebay) It's a massive sample library (1 GB) with almost any kind of orchestral instrument and lots of different articulations, vibratos, trills, tremolos, etc. It can be used as a plug-in to FL and almost any other music program (like Finale, Sibelius, Logic, etc). If you want to hear a demo of what it sounds like there's lots of demos out there. I used it in my Top Gear Symphony (http://www.cerrax.com/TG%20Symphony%20No.1.mp3).

[OverCoat]

I use East West Quantam Leap Symphonic Orchestra (EWQLSO for short) It's a massive sample library (1 GB)

More like 15 GB

It's huge

anyway, Darth, channels>add>fruity soundfont player.

[Cerrax]

I use East West Quantam Leap Symphonic Orchestra (EWQLSO for short) It's a massive sample library (1 GB)

More like 15 GB

It's huge

anyway, Darth, channels>add>fruity soundfont player.

Not the Silver Edition. It's only 1 GB (hence why its only $140). The Platinum Edition is 15 GB (and its also like $2000. But obviously its got a hell of a lot more samples).

[Compyfox]

How often does this same question come up over and over anyway?

[Argle]

Well, uh, if you don't know anything about composing, you should probably deal with that problem first before you worry about buying orchestral samples.

[Theowne]

Well, instead of "how do I remix" this is pretty much "how do I remix - orchestral music, that is"

Not the Silver Edition. It's only 1 GB (hence why its only $140). The Platinum Edition is 15 GB (and its also like $2000. But obviously its got a hell of a lot more samples).

Uhh, no Platinum is like 70GB. You're probably thinking of the Gold edition.

[zircon]

I use East West Quantam Leap Symphonic Orchestra (EWQLSO for short) It's a massive sample library (1 GB)

More like 15 GB

It's huge

anyway, Darth, channels>add>fruity soundfont player.

Not the Silver Edition. It's only 1 GB (hence why its only $140). The Platinum Edition is 15 GB (and its also like $2000. But obviously its got a hell of a lot more samples).

Not to nitpick, but the Silver edition is 2.4gb, the Gold edition is 15gb, and the Platinum edition is 68gb. ;)

[tgfoo]

Well, uh, if you don't know anything about composing, you should probably deal with that problem first before you worry about buying orchestral samples.

Probably the best little tid bit of information thus far. It would definitely help to spend some time learning some theory, developing your composition skills and learning about proper orchestration.

[Cerrax]

I use East West Quantam Leap Symphonic Orchestra (EWQLSO for short) It's a massive sample library (1 GB)

More like 15 GB

It's huge

anyway, Darth, channels>add>fruity soundfont player.

Not the Silver Edition. It's only 1 GB (hence why its only $140). The Platinum Edition is 15 GB (and its also like $2000. But obviously its got a hell of a lot more samples).

Not to nitpick, but the Silver edition is 2.4gb, the Gold edition is 15gb, and the Platinum edition is 68gb. ;)

Thanks zircon. Maybe I'm thing of something else thats only 1 GB. GPO maybe? Oh well.

[DDRage]

I use East West Quantam Leap Symphonic Orchestra (EWQLSO for short) It's a massive sample library (1 GB)

More like 15 GB

It's huge

anyway, Darth, channels>add>fruity soundfont player.

Not the Silver Edition. It's only 1 GB (hence why its only $140). The Platinum Edition is 15 GB (and its also like $2000. But obviously its got a hell of a lot more samples).

Not to nitpick, but the Silver edition is 2.4gb, the Gold edition is 15gb, and the Platinum edition is 68gb. ;)

Thanks zircon. Maybe I'm thing of something else thats only 1 GB. GPO maybe? Oh well.

GPO's around 2GB

[Compyfox]

No orchestra I know is 1GB only. EDIROL HQ Orchestra is around 200, the next biggest I know is Garritan, then comes EWQL Silver, Siedlaczek AO, Philharmonik Miroslav, after that the Kontakt2 Pack, and far off everything else. In that order.

[ubernym]

Samples are well and good, but no amount of money spent on quality samples can make up for poor orchestration. Writing orchestral music is an art in and of itself; several great composers have written entire books dedicated the subject of orchestration alone.

So get samples/soundfonts and learn how to use them, but you also need to learn how to write music for orchestras. Get a simple theory book, listen to orchestral music.

The secret to writing music of any style is to completely immerse yourself in it.

[DDRage]

Get a simple theory book, listen to orchestral music.


any suggestions on good theory books? specializing in orchestration preferably...

[Cerrax]

I don't know about books, but I know a lot of composers you could listen to. I like a lot of orchestral music. Some of my favorites:
Frank Ticelli "Vesuvius", "American Elegy"
Robert Smith "To Challenge The Sky And Heavens Above", Northwoods: Of Might And Mettle"
Gustav Holst "The Planets: Jupiter", "First Miltary Suite in E flat"
Carl Orf "Carmina Burana"
Dimitri Shotikovich "Symphony No. 5: Finale", "Festive Overature"
Percy Granger "Shepard's Hey"
Alfred Reed "Hounds of Spring"
Ludwig van Beetoven "Moonlight Sonata"
Giuseppe Verdi "Dies Irae"

These are just a few. There's a lot more but i can't think of them right now.

[OverCoat]

p.s. I got QLSO silver last night and yes, it takes a lot of work to make it not sound like utter shit.

So yeah BE CAREFUL, THERE. Gotta know what you're doing, because apparently I don't, despite all the panning and humanization ;/????????

[TheLeviathan]

Couple quick questions about the Symphonic Orchestra Silver edition for any of its users. First off, I only have 512 ram on my laptop. I know min requirements are 256 and recommended is 1 gig, but will I experience any big slowdowns with my comp if I use too many of the instruments, effects, etc? My memory already dies after a while with a few effects in FL.

2nd question: Is this pretty much the most obvious purchase for orchestral samples in this price range?

[zircon]

Couple quick questions about the Symphonic Orchestra Silver edition for any of its users. First off, I only have 512 ram on my laptop. I know min requirements are 256 and recommended is 1 gig, but will I experience any big slowdowns with my comp if I use too many of the instruments, effects, etc? My memory already dies after a while with a few effects in FL.

2nd question: Is this pretty much the most obvious purchase for orchestral samples in this price range?

Uh.. if your memory dies after only a few effects in FL, that's pretty bad. But I don't think that should happen. Tweak your computer's settings, disable background programs + services, and you should be fine. 512mb is low but not unusable. You can always use DFD (direct from disk) streaming as well as well as bouncing audio to disk to save your RAM.

Also, yeah, QLSO Silver and Gold are really solid for the price range. It's hard for me to recommend anything else besides those and GPO.

[Radiowar]

Get a simple theory book, listen to orchestral music.


any suggestions on good theory books? specializing in orchestration preferably...

It is not something you can pick up and just do. Even with prior music knowledge the concepts are difficult to grasp and take a lot of work to learn. I'd recommend finding a teacher.

[TheLeviathan]

Couple quick questions about the Symphonic Orchestra Silver edition for any of its users. First off, I only have 512 ram on my laptop. I know min requirements are 256 and recommended is 1 gig, but will I experience any big slowdowns with my comp if I use too many of the instruments, effects, etc? My memory already dies after a while with a few effects in FL.

2nd question: Is this pretty much the most obvious purchase for orchestral samples in this price range?

Uh.. if your memory dies after only a few effects in FL, that's pretty bad. But I don't think that should happen. Tweak your computer's settings, disable background programs + services, and you should be fine. 512mb is low but not unusable. You can always use DFD (direct from disk) streaming as well as well as bouncing audio to disk to save your RAM.

Also, yeah, QLSO Silver and Gold are really solid for the price range. It's hard for me to recommend anything else besides those and GPO.

Thanks, between QLSO Silver and GPO, which would you recommend? I am looking for all coverage of each instrument, but the most important to me are the piano and strings. I've also heard that QLSO Silver's piano is top notch.

Also, I know that Gold doesn't have the piano or choir that Silver does, but is it really worth the extra $200? Is the quality better at all, or is it only a bigger selection of samples?

[GeckoYamori]

Get a real orchestra and make a recording. Or rephrase your question.

[Jens Wulvik]

No orchestra I know is 1GB only. EDIROL HQ Orchestra is around 200

WTF?! You made it sound like 200Gb but it's 200Mb.

[SnappleMan]

Hah, I've heard orchestral music through GM midi that sounds better than orchestral music done with EWQLSO Platinum. It's all in how you write it.

I got EWQLSO Silver, and I fucking SUCK at using it. No samples can replace good ol' fashioned MUSIC...

Orchestral music (to me at least) is a very delicate genre that is completely unforgiving of a lackluster composition. Learn theory and learn it well before tackling such a beast.

As for me, brainless metal will keep my fanbase happy and my lack of musical ability hidden! :)

[Fenzark]

Though it might be obvious, or maybe not, classical music education will definatily help on this point. Making good classical music is all about knowing the rules; and how to break them to create good music. That's how it seems to me, abit anyways. :wink:

Not trying to say that you can't create anything good without knowing music theory, because I definatily believe you can - but it'll be a help to know the basics, such as cadances, I - IV - V, and so on. Even if you have no musical powers inside of you, you can create okay sounding music just knowing those basic rules.

Good luck anyways! :)

[SnappleMan]

Well, orchestral music can't be just "okay". Most people these days use that genre to be dramatic and larger than life. You can't be just okay if you're trying to move people through music.

I mean cmon, next you'll tell me that it's possible to be a bad composer and become the most popular figure in the videogame music scene! HAH!

[Fenzark]

Well, orchestral music can't be just "okay". Most people these days use that genre to be dramatic and larger than life. You can't be just okay if you're trying to move people through music.

I mean cmon, next you'll tell me that it's possible to be a bad composer and become the most popular figure in the videogame music scene! HAH!
Well, take what I said with a bit grain of salt, then. You don't have to take it literally. :) I believe that people that are okay CAN make good classical music, but most likely not.

Classical music can be the most powerful of all the genres of music, and is very subtle. Theory controls the music oh-so-much.

[Souliarc]

Annnnnnd for those unaware of the Free Orchestration Course: Principles of Orchestration (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=77), there it is, if you want 8O

[SnappleMan]

Well, orchestral music can't be just "okay". Most people these days use that genre to be dramatic and larger than life. You can't be just okay if you're trying to move people through music.

I mean cmon, next you'll tell me that it's possible to be a bad composer and become the most popular figure in the videogame music scene! HAH!
Well, take what I said with a bit grain of salt, then. You don't have to take it literally. :) I believe that people that are okay CAN make good classical music, but most likely not.

Classical music can be the most powerful of all the genres of music, and is very subtle. Theory controls the music oh-so-much.

You so obviously missed that joke...

[Fenzark]

Well, orchestral music can't be just "okay". Most people these days use that genre to be dramatic and larger than life. You can't be just okay if you're trying to move people through music.

I mean cmon, next you'll tell me that it's possible to be a bad composer and become the most popular figure in the videogame music scene! HAH!
Well, take what I said with a bit grain of salt, then. You don't have to take it literally. :) I believe that people that are okay CAN make good classical music, but most likely not.

Classical music can be the most powerful of all the genres of music, and is very subtle. Theory controls the music oh-so-much.

You so obviously missed that joke...
Hahaha, I guess I did :wink:
Sorry about my lack of humor. I've been taught for two years of a teacher who's methods and thinking resembled very much what you just said, so I guess you'll have to excuse me abit there.

[Zoola]

I've been using EWQLSO Silver for a while, and really the only thing I can write with those strings is lil poppy / disco strings. But really, the sample set is realllllly nice, well worth the money. I just can't do the orchestral.

[DZComposer]

Before you start thinking about samples, first start thinking about what you want to do.

You want to write for orchestra. This requires an entirely different mindset than writing a trance or rock song.

In comparison, thsoe genres (trance especially) are very simple in structure (for the most part, but there are exceptions), while orchestral music is much more complex.

Writing orchestral music is not easy. It can also be downright frustrating at times.

First off, here is what is required (basic list):
1. A good ear. The musical ear is more important in orchestral music than in other genres.

2. Knowledge of intermediate music theory. You need to know about complex rhythms and chords. Being able to read music is a definate plus.

3. Basic knowlege of orchestral instruments. In a rock band you have three basic instruments. Guitar, Bass, and drums. The orchestra is a lot different. There are about 15 standard instruments in the orchestra, most split into diferent parts (Ex. 1st and 2nd violin).

You not only have to know what these instruments are, you have to know their ranges, For instance a trumpet playng a Bb1 (middle C = C3) will make it sound unrealistic, as standard trumpets can't go that low.

Here is a basic instrument list:
Violin
Viola
Cello
Contrabass
Flute
Oboe
Clarinet
Bassoon
Bass Clarinet
F Horn
Trumpet
Trombone
Tuba
Timpani
Percussion

You are not tied to these. Others can be added, such as piccolos, bass trombones, and english horns. Also, a chior may be present.

The ranges will be listed in a link I am about to give you.

4. Know how to orchestrate (how to use the instruments). This is the hardest part. You can study this stuff in college for years. But, there are resources out there that are much cheaper, even free!

Garritan is publishing for free Rimsky-Korsokav's "Principles of Orchestration" with examples. Start here: http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=77

Also, one element often overlooked in orchestration these days is the timpani. The timpani are VERY limited in what they can do during a piece. Many game composers do not know this. ;)

A good timapni resource (with a Super Mario Bros. example! :mrgreen: ): http://members.cox.net/datimp/mus1.html (this page assumes you can read music)

5. An instrument, preferably A piano or keyboard. While not 100% required, This is really helpful. It allows you to play with ideas before pluggin them into your sequencer.

6. Samples. Samples are last on the list. I would start with soundfont first and then move up once you have honed your skills a bit. That way you do not spend a lot of meny up front. Though if you wish to buy a library off the bat, then I reccomend either GPO or EWQLSO Silver. GPO is a bit more featured than silver, but it also has a special way of working that you have to learn in order for it to sound as good as it can.

You MUST start listening to orchestral music. Buy score soundtracks to movies. Buy classical albums. Listen to them.

Also, if you know how to read music, study scores are great. I have one for Beethoven's 8th and 9th symphonies, as well as one for Holst's "The Planets."

Study score are great because they allow you to see the music visually. Following along in the score while listening is a great way to help you learn orchestration.

[Jens Wulvik]

Is it possible to store the samples on CDs or DVDs instead of occupating space on the harddrive with
EWQLSO Silver edition?? Is this possible with garritan pers. orch.??

[zircon]

Uhh... I think in theory it's possible, but I REALLY doubt DFD streaming would work.

[Jens Wulvik]

Isn't garritan pers.o. using kontakt samples?? It should be possible to load kontakt samples from CD, right??

[zircon]

No, GPO uses GPO samples. It uses the Kontakt player, however, which has DFD capabilities. Now, DFD depends on having at least a decently fast rate of data reading, which I don't think you're going to get from a CD drive.

[tgfoo]

DFD wise with GPO, you'd probably be fine without it if you have a decent amount of RAM. Actually, when the GPO Kontakt player first was updated so that it had DFD, Garritan himself recommened turning it off because GPO wasn't optimized for it and it worked better loading the samples into RAM. I'm not sure if they changed that or not in one of it's newer updates

[Jens Wulvik]

If I can load samples into RAM, I'm fine. Got 1024mb ram, often load samples into ram with some VSTs. RAM is not the problem, but hardrive space is.

[Blake]

I just realized how bad I am at timpani writing, but how lazy I am to learn it. I can't wait to buy GPO. For some reason what I've heard from comparitive demos of GPO and EWQL samples, GPO would more fit my style of writing. I'm glad DZComposer stuck in the disclaimer that not all trance or rock songs are that simple in structure.

I've been playing trumpet in band for approximately 8 years now and that is the majority of "theory" experience that I've acquired. It's good to listen to orchestral music, but don't listen to classical composers all day and try to mimic them. Listen to all kinds of orchestral music until you become familiar with some often-used textures and tricks, and use that to create your OWN style. Also, orchestral music may be the most complex "genre" to write, so it tends to get ripped apart the most. There are so many different aspects that need to have attention paid to.
However, I've noticed that orchestral instrumental performance and orchestral composing is the biggest attraction for elitests, know-it-alls, connoisseurs, whatever you want to call them. Some like to have you copy classical theory by the dot and will not be satisfied until you do so. Don't let these people destroy your goal. However, you must also focus on taking advice and not getting angry and dismissive. Keep in mind that you would be "new". Never get cocky either, as it halts improvement. Instead, be confident.
Too many people take music in as a competition, especially orchestral, from what I've seen in real life. "I know more than YOU do! Therefore you know nothing." Remember it's an artform about you, not about being better than the other guy.

Anyway take this with a grain of salt. I really don't have nearly enough experience or talent as an orchestrator to be preaching those things, but they're the fundamental practice of anything that requires improvement.

[Souliarc]

Some like to have you copy classical theory by the dot and will not be satisfied until you do so. Don't let these people destroy your goal. However, you must also focus on taking advice and not getting angry and dismissive.

Very good guidance. I hope to be attending music school in the future and i've been quite worried about this.